Today in the second of our series of interviews with party leaders ahead of the Holyrood election Political Correspondent STEWART PATERSON ask the Scottish Greens Co-Convenor PARTICK HARVIE about the Greens policies on fossil fuels, the meat industry, Universal Basic Income and if he considers Alex Salmond’s Alba Party an electoral threat.

GREEN PRIORITIES

Stewart Paterson: “What is the number one priority of the Green party?”

Patrick Harvie: “Very clearly the decisions the next parliament makes are going to be critical life and death decisions about covid recovery, about a climate and nature emergencies and about how we address the poverty and inequalities in our society.

“The thing that unites these is asking people to vote like our future depends on it. This isn’t about looking back, this is about looking forward, being able to grapple with the really difficult challenges that face the country but the opportunities they bring as well. We’re asking people to vote like our future depends on it and really take on those challenges for the future.”

SP: “What would come higher on that list, environmental justice, climate change or independence?”

PH: “I think they’re interconnected. Clearly no Green politician is going to say the collapse of our life support system is second on the list of priorities but they’re deeply connected. If we look at a lot of the policies we need to implement to cut our emissions they’re also good for social justice. Things like energy efficiencies, cutting people’s fuel bills, investment in public transport, cutting what people have to pay. In Glasgow here, we’ve got really unaffordable bus services, they’re extremely unreasonably priced, so getting that world class affordable public transport. In fact, the Greens have a track record on this of bringing in free bus travel for young people later this year.

Glasgow Times:

“In terms of independence, also deeply connected to the ability to make these transformational changes.

“We need to be looking at saying no to new exploration licences for oil and gas. We need to be ending oil ang gas tax breaks and subsidies and investing that money, multi-billion pounds here we’re talking about, into the solutions to the climate emergency and at the moment a lot of that still sits with Westminster.”

DECARBONISATION

SP: “How quickly could we move to completely stop using fossil fuels?”

PH: “In terms of extraction, we need to immediately ban new exploration licences. We need to revoke the undeveloped licences that haven’t been used yet and for existing fields that are currently operational, we need to look at each one and set a reasonable timetable for winding them down.

“In terms of using fossil fuels though, that’s a much deeper question because it’s not just fuel, they are used in chemical feed stocks, in a whole host of different…, pretty much every product you’ve got in your home will have some connection to fossil fuels and hydrocarbons.

“We need to be investing in industries that will replace those unsustainable ones and even here in Scotland we’ve got folk developing alternative chemical feed stocks that are based on sustainable renewable resources, instead of being based on hydrocarbons, oil and gas, so that’s a long-term agenda and the whole world is going to have to spend decades dealing with that.

Glasgow Times:

“In terms of extracting the stuff, burning the stuff, very clearly we’ve got at least three times as much oil and gas as we can afford to use so we need to stop looking for more.”

SP: “Will that cost jobs, in the short term will there be a reduction in jobs as we move away from that?

PH: “It will mean a change in jobs and it does mean…”

SP: “Will people be out of work until we get a new economy going?”

PH: “The simple answer is, yes. It will cause unemployment, unless we invest upfront in the alternative industries that we need. What we’ve seen with de-industrialisation here in Scotland in the 1980s and 90s, you saw a failure to invest in the alternative.  People saw economic change coming and they didn’t invest. This fundamentally is what the Scottish Greens are about. We know economic change is coming we know a wholesale change in our energy system is coming. We need to be investing in building up the industries that will create high quality jobs and prosperity for the future instead of just waiting until the crisis comes and it’s too late to create that alternative by that point.”

FOSSIL FUEL OR MEAT

SP: “A lot of the debate from Greens and environmentalists on what damages the environment most is fossil fuels and that’s where a lot of the focus is. Should Greens be telling people to eat less meat. Is that as big a problem, or a bigger problem, than fossil fuels. Should we be telling people to reduce or eradicate their meat intake?

PH: “I think it’s pretty clear we need to have a less meat and dairy intensive diet. Again, when we look at our agriculture industries that means supporting people to change. It doesn’t just mean ending what we’re doing now, it means supporting people to change. I think for health reasons as well as environmental reasons, most people recognise that a really, really meat intensive diet is not the way to go. There will be some people who would argue for a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet. I think most of the science suggests a more balanced diet with a lower meat and dairy intake is the right way to go and can be done sustainably. 

Glasgow Times:

“A lot of this is not about saying its all pushing individual responsibility down to people. It’s about economic systems, it’s about big business, it’s about how those economic systems drive behaviour. Sometimes you see the political right saying this is all about lifestyle choices and I genuinely think that’s wrong. This is about economic and political systems obviously supporting people to do the right thing is fantastic and most people want to do the right thing but they are not necessarily being supported to do that by those systems.

UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME

SP: “One economic argument I’ve heard from Greens is support for Universal Basic Income or a Citizen’s Income. Will that give money to people who don’t need it? “

PH: “Universal Basic Income has been Green policy for many, many years and it’s really encouraging to see that it’s attracting support from a much wider audience now and people recognizing that for decades we’ve seen increases in productivity, increases in economic activity benefiting a very few people, particularly those who are already the wealthiest. If we want to have an economy where we all benefit, where productivity benefits everybody, you need a wide range of solutions.

Glasgow Times:

“Universal Basic Income is a really important way of ensuring everybody gets a fair share of the economic activity because we all create that economic wealth. Fair taxation and changes in ownerships so there’s much more local decentralized ownership and community ownership as well. These are ways of ensuring it works for everybody not just those who are at the top of the pile.”

SP: “Will it put money in the bank accounts of folk who don’t necessarily need support from the state?  Is that something we just need to accept as a part of universality?”

PH: “I don’t think it’s something we should see as unfortunate. It’s part of a wider system. You could make the same case about healthcare. Why should rich people get their health care from the NHS?  Well, the answer is, there are certain things that benefit us all when we pay for them collectively and meeting people’s basic needs, we’re not talking about a Universal Basic Income that would give people a luxury lifestyle. You’re talking about enough to put food on the table and pay your bills and I think a lot of people = understand the = concept of enough whereas a lot of economists don’t and they think it’s all about growth, growth, growth. So an Universal Basic Income allied with a fairer economy, fair taxation and making sure the likes of the Amazons of this world don’t get to dominate every sector of the economy. All of these things together can create a much fairer and equal society.”

ALBA PARTY

SP: “To go back to the independence question. A lot of your support will be form people who back independence. Not entirely, as I’m sure there are people in the green party who are not in favour. Are you worried you are going to lose votes to the Alba Party?”

PH: No. The position of the greens on independence has always been democratically decided by our members as long as I’ve been a member there’s always been a majority in favour of independence and I think that’s only grown as people see not only how the debate in 2014 went but some of the limits of devolution at the moment.

“If you want a genuinely sustainable energy system, it’s not enough to be responsible for fuel poverty when you can’t regulate the energy market.  If you want a more fair and equal society it’s not enough to be responsible for the consequences of poverty without controlling the economic levers. So, it’s really about completing a journey to self-government. And yes, taking a role on the world stage advocating for the kind of sustainable, pro peace policies that we don’t see from the UK Government.

Glasgow Times:

“As for the Alex Salmond Party. I started the first answer by saying we need to vote like our future depends on it. We need to look forward to these issues like the climate and nature emergency.  About poverty and inequality on society and about covid recovery and I just don’t see Alex Salmond as the answer to any of those questions.

“So, we’re asking people to vote like our future depends on it not for yesterday’s men.”

SP: “Do you think Greens will be seduced by his argument.

PH: “I see very little cross-over between the kind of voters who have been voting Green, who want a progressive, modern, inclusive vision of Scotland and the people who seem to go along with what looks to all intents and purposes like an ego trip.

“I don’t think he represents the values of the kind of people who have been voting Green and the kind of people who have been voting like their future depends on it.”